Black Metal vs. The World

[Crushed Hope]

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w169/Zombie_G/1205389508729.gif

Haha, I wonder what I was given that for!

[ZombieG]

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w169/Zombie_G/1205389508729.gif

Haha, I wonder what I was given that for!I was going through my photobucket and asked, "What lone action or image could epitomize your post?"

Then it hit me like a spank ray.

[Crushed Hope]

Haha, I fail to see how relevant that image is though. Baring emo acts like Rites of Spring and Jerome's Dream I've heard next to no hardcore better than metal bands like Burzum and Darkthrone.

[ZombieG]

Of course, because nothing's more emotional than a thirty-something guy writing NSBM anthems on a keyboard behind bars, or someone who doesn't even take their own genre seriously.

Breathtaking, I'm sure.

[Crushed Hope]

Burzum never was and never has been NSBM. His personal ideals on race have never made it into his music. I'm obviously not speaking of his work from prison, but rather his work prior to his imprisonment. Hvis Lyset Tar Oss and Filosofem are two of the most evocative works of art that metal has put out. It isn't my problem if you dislike them or fail to see this.

[ZombieG]

Burzum never was and never has been NSBM. His personal ideals on race have never made it into his music. I'm obviously not speaking of his work from prison, but rather his work prior to his imprisonment. Hvis Lyset Tar Oss and Filosofem are two of the most evocative works of art that metal has put out. It isn't my problem if you dislike them or fail to see this.Hah. Cute.

Nothing about black metal has ever been artistic, good luck convincing yourself otherwise.

[Crushed Hope]

Hah. Cute.

Nothing about black metal has ever been artistic, good luck convincing yourself otherwise.

Black metal, as it took form in Norway in the early 90s, was an artistic movement.

People looking in from the outside wouldn't know because they're too caught up in their ideas of what is socially acceptable and anything that violates those sanctions isn't in any way art. No way. It can't be. The fact of the matter is, it is art whether or not you think so. Art, as far as music goes, is that which has a purpose and a deeper meaning and extends that purpose through the music and the words. Black metal fits this perfectly.

You can go fellate your worthless techy bands now.

[ZombieG]

Black metal, as it took form in Norway in the early 90s, was an artistic movement.

People looking in from the outside wouldn't know because they're too caught up in their ideas of what is socially acceptable and anything that violates those sanctions isn't in any way art. No way. It can't be. The fact of the matter is, it is art whether or not you think so. Art, as far as music goes, is that which has a purpose and a deeper meaning and extends that purpose through the music and the words. Black metal fits this perfectly.

You can go fellate your worthless techy bands now."Techy bands" aye? I'm listening to trip-hop right now, kind of fail to see the connection.

Technically, you're right. I could step on a guitar and call it art. I could also convince absolute cunts like you that, with just a bit of synth, that it's dark ambient metal from the fimbvlwintermoon, and just like the predictable idiots you and rest of your ilk are, you'd all love it.

None of you bm fags have any real individualistic taste or critical ability to speak of. You're all part of this mindless me-too-ism that considers appealing music to be somewhere beneath flossing with chainsaws when it comes to bringing any band from Norway with corpse paint into context. It's all about atmosphere caused by shitty recordings, and horribly re-worked crust-punk songs with an attitude of the standard raging anti-theist. It's about as entertaining as it sounds, as well.

[Crushed Hope]

I don't even know where to start with that one. It is just so chock full of stupidity that I really could hit it from any angle and still manage to miss something because I'm too focused on attempting to suppress the great brain drain that I'm going under as a result of reading such a blazing and baseless generalization.

[ZombieG]

I don't have anything useful to say or any readily available manner to refute that point. This is a useless post.

Done with Google translator. It apparently translates cunting faggot.

[Crushed Hope]

Haha, no seriously man - that was a huge generalization you just made. Just because YOU are unable to appreciate the music does not mean it has no worth.

I fully understand why people would like bands like Necrophagist and The Dillinger Escape Plan. I understand that people enjoy things that are outwardly showy and what not. I understand the worth it has to them, although I personally do not get the same out of it that they do.

I know it may seem like a copout of sorts, but honestly often times when I express my opinion in such 'extreme' and forceful manners I am doing it to get a rise.

That said - much love!

[ZombieG]

I don't like Necrophagist. I'm actually vehemently against such ridiculous technical masturbation. Dillinger Escape Plan is an entirely different group who if you only see as technical wankery, you've absolutely missed the point.

I have no problem appreciating good black metal. Burzum is not a part of that. I really do find it funny to see you making some strange and absolutely unfounded accusation of what I listen to, when ultimately you really have no idea. You're the metal equivalent of a hipster, and just as sickening.

[Crushed Hope]

Burzum is absolutely a part of good black metal. If you fail to see that, then that is your problem.

I'm hardly a metal hipster - unless you want to take into account that as of late I've hardly listened to metal with any serious desire to get anything out of it lately and instead have filled myself with legions of rap and alternative rock groups like Wu-Tang Clan and Sonic Youth, so I guess I've got the whole ironic thing down. But other than that, I fail to see the worth in your comparison.

[Kyuuketsuki]

Burzum > 311

STFU RYAN

/END

[Crushed Hope]

ANUS has fucking excellent taste in music - but even I have issues taking them seriously.

you seemed to sum up everything bm perfectly.

no he really didn't. An outsider looking in will never be able to sum it up perfectly.

[ZombieG]

no he really didn't. An outsider looking in will never be able to sum it up perfectly.I love how you black metal fags have this inner-circle mentality about you. Like, only a select few people are able to delude themselves into thinking shit is a masterpiece.

"Outsider looking in." You really believe you're not an elitist?

[ZombieG]

I really doubt he meant it that way. And besides, "outsider looking in" can apply to just about anything.


True, but it takes some kind of asshole with illusions of exclusivity to believe that only certain genres are able to be "understood" by certain people. As far as black metal goes, you don't have to familiarize yourself with the genre to know what it's about. Listen to any crust punk group, then put black metal lyrics over them. There you go, that's more than 90% of black metal. What's so hard to understand about that?

Not to mention, calling me an outsider is preposterous. I've sent more black metal albums from groups like :STALAGGH: back to their respective labels than I'd like to discuss.

[Kyuuketsuki]

:STALAGGH:

SO NIHILISTIKKK. SCREAMS FROM THE WARRRRD.

[Ehsivar]

Listen to any crust punk group, then put black metal lyrics over them. There you go, that's more than 90% of black metal. What's so hard to understand about that?


Not much, considering that has some truth to it. Many black metal groups are also just amazing. Among them Bathory, Agalloch, Windir, Belenos, Falkenbach, Peccatum, Primordial, Arcturus, Bal-Sagoth, Venom, Rain, Diabolical Masquerade, or Wintersun.

Seriously though, you should hear Arcturus.

[Crushed Hope]

Not much, considering that has some truth to it. Many black metal groups are also just amazing. Among them Bathory, Agalloch, Windir, Belenos, Falkenbach, Peccatum, Primordial, Arcturus, Bal-Sagoth, Venom, Rain, Diabolical Masquerade, or Wintersun.

Seriously though, you should hear Arcturus.

There isn't even that much truth to it - I won't deny the influence of punk on black metal but he is making incredibly gross generalizations and even the most minimalistic of black metal (I guess Darkthrone's TH is a perfect example of this) doesn't come close to simply ripping off crust punk.

For the record I'd dispute Wintersun even being black metal. They're essentially power metal.

As for my outsider statement I meant that not everyone can appreciate (see: enjoy more than just a few bands) black metal so those who don't, have statements that are essentially not as valid as those who do in regards to the quality of the music.

[dr. shitlizard]

Isn't that practically a given rule with any genre, though?

[Crushed Hope]

Isn't that practically a given rule with any genre, though?

Yes, but certain people don't seem to understand it as such.

[xRedx]

Hang on, what qualifies you as an "insider"?

You are talking as if you are actually part of the Black Metal scene, whereas you are clearly just a music fan who happens to like Black Metal.

[Crushed Hope]

I meant that by one who listens extensively to it. One doesn't have to play it to understand it, but one does have to listen to it to understand it.

[xRedx]

I meant that by one who listens extensively to it. One doesn't have to play it to understand it, but one does have to listen to it to understand it.

Ryan has listened to it, surely that means he understands it, albeit in a different way to yourself?

[Shalashaska]

I don't know why, but when I hear insider I think of someone who is part of the industry. Listening to any genre "extensively" is great for mesmerizing lyrics and air strumming an air guitar. An avid listener is just a fan - they can't go beyond that.

[ZombieG]

The thing that really confounds me about all this is that I've approached most black metal from a purely critical standpoint. The fact of the matter is that most black metal, just like all forms of music, is populated in the majority by shitty bands. Black metal, however, seems to be one of the few genres that manages to confuse anyone with some sort of critical ear as to whether or not it's horrible music, or if it's to contribute to the "dark atmosphere" or some similar nonsense. Similar to circumstance of part of the punk-appeal of the Sex Pistols, and Sid Vicious' influence specifically, was that he had no fucking idea how to play bass.

Look at the songwriting structure between x crust punk group and x black metal group. Any statistically random bands are going to look very, very similar. Just pick up some tablatures.

Crushed Hope, you can tell yourself all you want to that this is somehow false, but when you actually write about music(And I don't mean long-winded puff pieces, I mean actually critical writing) this is the sort of thing you're supposed to look for, just so that when an album comes along that sounds extremely different and endearing, you're able to explain in detail why that is. You can tell me "deud burzum is fucfgkgnt art" all you want to, but you have no viable way to back that up other than "you just haev to here it."

Edit: Stop listing me off black metal bands to hear. I've heard 1349, Bulldozer, Drudkh, Emperor, Crionics, Dodheimsgard, Manes, Dark Fortress, Watain, Dissection, Enslaved(THEIR VIKING METAL BRO), Mayhem, Marduk, Hellhammer, Celtic Frost, and numerous other bands. I'm not exactly alien to the music.

[Crushed Hope]

Therein lies your problem, you're listening to it for reasons that do not work with artistic movements and generally 'extreme' genres of music. You could give the most respected critic in the world a Nurse With Wound album and I'm sure he wouldn't even begin to know how to go about judging it in a way that makes him sound like he knows what he heard.

Much like how you could give someone, yourself in the case, a Burzum record and have it fly completely over your head.

It is fine that you're missing the point. I don't expect you to get it, much like I don't expect anyone to get it - but your outright dismissal of the possibility of it being remotely good is something of a joke. You wrap all BM fans into this little box in which everyone listens to only the shittiest recordings from basements and garages and finds them to be mystical and evil, and frankly that is the thing in which you reveal your misunderstanding.

Sure, the image is a draw-in for many people, but those are the people who don't go far beyond 1349 and Dark Funeral. However, that obviously isn't everyone - and if you think, even the slightest bit, that those who are not like that are the kvlt-everything must be obscure kiddies then think again, because I find often times that even those who do find themselves listening to rather obscure acts like Hail and Megiddo that when it comes down to it their favorites will ultimately be bands like Emperor, Burzum, Darkthrone, Immortal, etc.

Also one thing I've noticed in black metal that you seem to be missing is that it is a very melody seeking genre of music. Underneath the harsh exterior of the vocals and production jobs the truly great bands are those who have an ability to craft a melody that leads one through the song and captures the feeling of the music and lyrics. Infact, aside from heavy and power metal it is easily the most melodically centered subgenre of metal.

That isn't something most crust punk is known for.

[Crushed Hope]

Ryan has listened to it, surely that means he understands it, albeit in a different way to yourself?

Listening to a few bands and writing them off as crust punk ripoffs doesn't count.

I don't know why, but when I hear insider I think of someone who is part of the industry. Listening to any genre "extensively" is great for mesmerizing lyrics and air strumming an air guitar. An avid listener is just a fan - they can't go beyond that.

There is no black metal 'industry.'

[Solitary Seraph]

There must be an industry for it if people buy the cds, no? They're all on labels.

[Crushed Hope]

Industry implies it being a business, the majority of these labels are just people pressing releases in their spare time and when you do get labels like Dark Symphonies and Supernal they tend to print and sell it only to break even.

The point of an industry/business is to make money. Black metal is of a different purpose.

[Solitary Seraph]

THE TRUE FANS OF BLACK METAL RECEIVE THE SONGS THROUGH SATAN IN THEIR HEARTS AS THEY FIGHT THE BITTER COLD OF NORWAY DIGGING FOR THAT PERFECT BLACK FOREST TO PERFORM THEIR RITES OF DARKNESS IN

[Crushed Hope]

Haha, I simply meant to say that black metal is (or was) a genre based upon artistic integrity and as such it is not a business oriented style of music.

[ZombieG]

Therein lies your problem, you're listening to it for reasons that do not work with artistic movements and generally 'extreme' genres of music. You could give the most respected critic in the world a Nurse With Wound album and I'm sure he wouldn't even begin to know how to go about judging it in a way that makes him sound like he knows what he heard.

Much like how you could give someone, yourself in the case, a Burzum record and have it fly completely over your head.

It is fine that you're missing the point. I don't expect you to get it, much like I don't expect anyone to get it - but your outright dismissal of the possibility of it being remotely good is something of a joke. You wrap all BM fans into this little box in which everyone listens to only the shittiest recordings from basements and garages and finds them to be mystical and evil, and frankly that is the thing in which you reveal your misunderstanding.

Sure, the image is a draw-in for many people, but those are the people who don't go far beyond 1349 and Dark Funeral. However, that obviously isn't everyone - and if you think, even the slightest bit, that those who are not like that are the kvlt-everything must be obscure kiddies then think again, because I find often times that even those who do find themselves listening to rather obscure acts like Hail and Megiddo that when it comes down to it their favorites will ultimately be bands like Emperor, Burzum, Darkthrone, Immortal, etc.

Also one thing I've noticed in black metal that you seem to be missing is that it is a very melody seeking genre of music. Underneath the harsh exterior of the vocals and production jobs the truly great bands are those who have an ability to craft a melody that leads one through the song and captures the feeling of the music and lyrics. Infact, aside from heavy and power metal it is easily the most melodically centered subgenre of metal.

That isn't something most crust punk is known for.Dealing with your circular logic is really starting to get tiresome.

Way to drop Nurse With Wound. A band that I love and have written about. Oh, and a similar group of other artists, like Skullflower and Mem1. The only thing I did was review avant-garde acts like I Am Above on the Left(which is thousands of times a more demanding listen, as well as much more rewarding than any black metal release I've heard recently) and groups like the Molecules.

I find it strange how your view of critics can somehow overshadow the fact that you write reviews for Metal-Archives, and if reviews aren't critical, the fucking worthless. Is everything you write an endless convalescence of meandering imagery that goes fucking nowhere and says nothing about music? I'm guessing you love the sound of your own voice as much as you do "Det Som Engang Var".

I'm not rapping all black metal fans into any category. I'm generalizing the ones you happen to share a lot of traits with, mainly your inability to critically view the music you listen to, instead saying it's art that can't be judged, when that just clearly isn't the case.

And how are you not similar? Weren't you the one who said Wolves in the Throne Room was black metal for hispters? What basis do you have to make that statement? How is that different from me saying that most black metal fans are mentally incapable of any form of critical thought?

And no, I'm not missing the melody. I'm very aware of the fact that somewhere underneath the horrible hiss, Immortal are capable of writing melodic music. You seem to be absolutely missing the point. Melody and dissonance as far as chords go are only a few finger positions away from each other. Crust punk and black metal, in the vast majority, have fucking identical song structure, even down to blast-beats, which themselves are derived from metal influenced by punk, a variation of the d-beat. It has nothing to do with the presence of melody, it's song structure. Tablatures, and the way the music is constructed. You'd know this if you were indeed capable of any form of musical analysis, but it's clear that you aren't. You're just some twat who can randomly put words together and seem like you know what you're talking about, when anyone who can actually tell one band from the next will either laugh or scoff.

I'm not even going to bother going into the argument of whether or not black metal's an industry. The entire movement, shy of a select few bands, is for the most part an absolute joke.

[Crushed Hope]

I'll admit defeat, moreso because I don't want to continue arguing with someone who pretty much insinuated that blastbeats are just hyperspeed d-beats than because I've actually lost.

Just one more point, some music is intrinsically good whether or not you want to admit it.

[ZombieG]

I'll admit defeat, moreso because I don't want to continue arguing with someone who pretty much insinuated that blastbeats are just hyperspeed d-beats than because I've actually lost.

Just one more point, some music is intrinsically good whether or not you want to admit it.

[22:20] Liam: Crushed Hope is online
[22:20] Liam: in before the inane debate continues
[22:20] All Night Wrong: Oh, it'll continue until he backs out.
[22:20] All Night Wrong: Saying something along the lines of "I can't be bothered to continue debating with the likes of you."
[22:20] All Night Wrong: in b4 bvrzvm is art

[Crushed Hope]

:hahano:

[Ehsivar]

Well, I suppose we have two missunderstandings.

[xRedx]

Listening to a few bands and writing them off as crust punk ripoffs doesn't count.



There is no black metal 'industry.'


Good comeback.

[Chaos Bard]

...so is that over? Good. Because so far as I recall, this thread is about the difference between metal and hardcore, not "black metal vs. the world."

[ZombieG]

...so is that over? Good. Because so far as I recall, this thread is about the difference between metal and hardcore, not "black metal vs. the world."Fair enough, I'll split the thread, because I'm a hip and funny guy.

[Brad]

Oh God, I nearly read that shit twice, thanks ZombieG.

[Ehsivar]

You people make me lol.

I side with black metal for all the bands I mentioned before. The world's production quality is too good for my tastes.

[dr. shitlizard]

You people make me lol.

I side with black metal for all the bands I mentioned before. The world's production quality is too good for my tastes.

http://bsd.ee/~hadara/pictures/corpsepaint-2002-12-21/mask3.jpg