Global Education Plague

[Atmasaro]

Here's a misconception I can live with hearing a little less - "Japan has a better education system than America." If anything, it's those sorts of statistics that lead to the supposed failures in America's education system. By that I mean the glorification of FACT-BASED EDUCATION. Let me clarify. The American education system is rooted in resource-based learning, that is the teaching of the resources available for further learning as opposed to strictly teaching facts. Japan, among other education systems, is more concerned with fact-memory learning, cramming students with all sorts of memorized facts so that the statistics look good upon graduation.

Not to say the American education system has been saintly in maintaining its goal. Over the past several decades, America has rejected various progressive educational reforms proposed by professionals in the field of education merely because they seem too "difficult and costly" to implement, instead implementing them in alternative schools which students and teachers alike have found successful. People with actual educational standing have testified to the success of these reforms. However, in an education system typically regulated by ignorant parents, an open-minded reform is unlikely. To make matters much worse, the bullshit statistics which have claimed Japan's educational superiority have only taunted the ignorant parents in control, causing widespread implementations of standardized tests and more fact-memory learning here in America.

The American education system is moving backwards and further plaguing the educational environment of the entire world. Do you agree or disagree? What are you going to do about it?

[pariah]

What am I going to do about? Not a damn thing. Neither are you. What can you do?

I wouldn't say we're moving backwards, but we haven't done anything to move forward either. There'd hardly any funding going toward education and I'm not sure when that's going to change.

I wouldn't say they're cramming students with facts. Especially in college. Part of it just feels like students aren't doing their part to actually learn the material instead of studying. I'm guilty of it, and I'm sure many other people are as well.

What are these alternative schools you're talking about?

[ZombieG]

Education in America has been ruined because it's been federalized. While, it's true that Americans aren't the only country with a large number of idiots, when you're bringing our school system into context, the entire situation is horrific(Which makes me wonder why people would want the government to get involved in Healthcare). You have states with a rigid or overly simplistic education system relative to their citizens, but they're graded against other states in the same scale.

Not to mention, teachers can be fired for kids failing? What?

Makes me glad I grew up in a private school sometimes.

[pariah]

Ryan reminds me of my current school actually. Teachers do fear the mass mind of students simply because of a stupid survey we take. If the teacher gives out too much homework/the class is too difficult/is a meanie; the students evaluate the teacher high or low. And I've seen teachers that give out too much homework/the class is too difficult/is a meanie suddenly disappear next semester.

So, teachers are encouraged not to make students work at all.

[Atmasaro]

Teachers are forced to live in fear at every turn with the increase of standardized tests and other paranoia which pit schools against each other for funding. I think, if you want to have any control over the education system, you have to have heard of Howard Gardner and the theory of multiple intelligences.

Why? Because 1) you will have demonstrated some sort of background in education and 2) you will be capable of either supporting or reasonably challenging that theory in your educational judgments, and that's the theory that's being heavily challenged nationwide.

Note that college is not so much affected by the recent fact-memory transition because fewer people have control over or attempt to challenge education at the college level. (especially fewer ignorant parents)

Our education system is moving backwards because we're continuing to implement more standardized test requirements for graduation all around the country. These tests force all students to think at the exact same level which, while seemingly harmless, just doesn't work.

[Reku]

Standardized tests = harmless? I think not. You call being dragged out of your regular curriculum for a fundamentally S-Test/PSAT/GEPA/HSPA/[what-have-you]-based one is harmless? The worst part is that most of what you learn in the one or two months before those tests is garbage. Why? Because those tests are garbage. They simply test how well you can take a test. If one were to plot, for example, HSPA scores versus GPA's of every High School Senior in New Jersey, there would a correlation coefficient of something like 0.03.

It also doesn't help that the tests themselves can last up to 5 days @ 3 hours/day. They're more or less tests on how long you can last before you end up falling asleep, writing poems, or drawing at that point.


@Bonnie: I think the "alternative schools" could mean either private or magnet schools.

[Atmasaro]

That's exactly the point I was trying to make about standardized tests.

Also, as for alternative schools, I'm referring to schools for "troubled" students. William Glasser, for example, proposed a number of reforms with solid backing as far back as the 60's and 70's, few of which, only the least "risky", were implemented outside of these guinea pig alternative schools. Nowadays, however, these schools are reverting to the "give up on troubled students" theory even though there was evidence as to the success of Glasser's proposed reforms.

I also propose that, in education, where knowledge is constantly increasing, if we're not moving forward, we're moving backwards.

[NanakiXIII]

Educational reform is one of the reasons i'm becoming a teacher. I'm a strong believer that our education system is horrible. The standardized tests have got to go, the teachers who don't really teach and instead give busy work to the students(underline simple subjects once and verbs twice, over and over for weeks) have got to go. Hopefully this next generation of teachers move to improve the educational field a bit instead of just riding the flow. I know Libby and I, and our roommates Amber and Andy are all going to be teachers, and if we're all in the same school, we're all going to be pushing for some changes as much as we can.

Students are rarely taught to critically think anything through, and while this isn't the main problem, it's something i'm going to try and at least teach some of my students. By being able to critically think things through instead of taking what the teacher, or anyone, says at face value, and just learning the "facts". At least that's my opinion. By teaching math, i hope to help the students understand why they are learning the basics of algebra, and how they would apply it into their life in some way. In high school, that's all i wanted to know, was how i would apply it into a real life scenario and i never got a straight answer until college.

Don't even get me started on standardized tests. I don't consider myself a genius, nor do i think i'm a dumbass. I got a 16 on my ACT and didn't bother with the SAT. Most people i tell that to are appalled that i scored so low, but in all honesty...it hasn't mattered one bit. College doesn't care, as i'm going to community college for gen eds, then transferring to a 4 year university after i get my Associates.

Another major problem i have with the education system in place is that it's run like a business. I'm a firm believer that we should have socialized education, free and available to all who want it. Why should we restrict education to those who can afford it? Hell, i'm already $5000 in debt and i'm not even halfway through school yet. That's loans mind you, my parents make too much($60k/year together....riiight) and i'm not qualified for grants. If someone can't get qualified for financial aid...how are they possibly going to be offered the same opportunities that other people are allowed? I digress, this isn't a socialism argument. That's for the other thread. :P

If i'm not making much sense, i apologize. It's a bit early for me and i've been writing a damned essay on Dead Man for the past couple hours.

[Atmasaro]

Nanaki, I agree with much of what you've said. I'm also glad to see a number of people not only seeing the problem but taking the steps necessary to solve the problem. I'm certainly doing my part. I'm working towards a Masters in Teaching. Well, actually, I'm in the same boat you are right now - community college, then to the university (where they are put in boxes and they come out all the same). I intend to become a high school english teacher.

What you have said about math is especially crucial in that math is a subject not at all taken seriously by teachers at the high school level. I've had math teachers actually say "This is totally useless and you'll never need this in your life. Ready to learn?" I'm not saying these things shouldn't be taught. I'm saying that teachers need to understand why it is they're teaching these things. They need to understand the value of math, especially if they intend to teach it.

Our education system has ignored too many potential reforms and has instead become more and more archaic with the increased implementation of standardized tests and careless, busywork teachers.

[NanakiXIII]

Nanaki, I agree with much of what you've said. I'm also glad to see a number of people not only seeing the problem but taking the steps necessary to solve the problem. I'm certainly doing my part. I'm working towards a Masters in Teaching. Well, actually, I'm in the same boat you are right now - community college, then to the university (where they are put in boxes and they come out all the same). I intend to become a high school english teacher.

What you have said about math is especially crucial in that math is a subject not at all taken seriously by teachers at the high school level. I've had math teachers actually say "This is totally useless and you'll never need this in your life. Ready to learn?" I'm not saying these things shouldn't be taught. I'm saying that teachers need to understand why it is they're teaching these things. They need to understand the value of math, especially if they intend to teach it.

Our education system has ignored too many potential reforms and has instead become more and more archaic with the increased implementation of standardized tests and careless, busywork teachers.

Hear hear!

I failed out of math in high school, and since going to college and having it taught to me in a different way, has made me since start enjoying it. I don't know what it is between high school and college that makes learning so much easier for me.

[Chaos Bard]

Y'know, this is all far too true. I mean, I look at my school as an example. We placed so much emphasis on memorizing facts and shit, and I graduated 6th in my class, 28 on my ACT, blah blah blah. Now that I'm in college I can barely fucking pull anything off, because I never got taught how to write a good paper. All I got taught was the goddamn MLA (of course, even the colleges are rigid on that atrocious system). And so on, and so forth, and blah blah blah. Would you believe I didn't learn a single bit of grammar in English until 9th grade, because our middle school teacher didn't LIKE it? Or rather, I personally learned it because I found it easy. Most students did not.

The primary problem that I see with schooling is that everything in middle/high school seems to be so activity-oriented rather than educationally-oriented. Students that play a sport get so much leeway on assignments that it sickens me. So instead of pushing students to use their brains, they're pushed to use their bodies and them to cram for a big long test that determines more than it's worth.

[NanakiXIII]

Y'know, this is all far too true. I mean, I look at my school as an example. We placed so much emphasis on memorizing facts and shit, and I graduated 6th in my class, 28 on my ACT, blah blah blah. Now that I'm in college I can barely fucking pull anything off, because I never got taught how to write a good paper. All I got taught was the goddamn MLA (of course, even the colleges are rigid on that atrocious system). And so on, and so forth, and blah blah blah. Would you believe I didn't learn a single bit of grammar in English until 9th grade, because our middle school teacher didn't LIKE it? Or rather, I personally learned it because I found it easy. Most students did not.

The primary problem that I see with schooling is that everything in middle/high school seems to be so activity-oriented rather than educationally-oriented. Students that play a sport get so much leeway on assignments that it sickens me. So instead of pushing students to use their brains, they're pushed to use their bodies and them to cram for a big long test that determines more than it's worth.

Our football coach in high school was one of the English teachers. Guess which class all the football players were in? It was so biased it was sickening, they couldn't write a paper to save their lives, but somehow they were always just barely passing to play in the homecoming game, or something stupid like that.

I've seen a few projects they have done in their class, and it was something you would see 6th graders doing, creating a journal and decorating it with crayons and whatnot. I'm not against being creative, but when you're graded a majority on how good you make something look rather than the content...something is wrong. I'm referring to an English class, not an art class. Just figured i would clarify.

Man i hated that teacher.

Also, this is highly offtopic but i was curious if anyone else who is going to become a teacher is planning on doing this. I'm thinking of trying to push for some after school clubs, mainly one to play different board games(Citadels, Puerto Rico, Star Wars Epic Duels, all sorts of other fun shit i've been discovering recently). I would love to start a D&D club, but i can't see parents sitting back and just accepting that one at face value.

I'm a huge fan of games of just about any sort and i figure i could round all the "nerds" up and have some after school fun. Has anyone had anything like this in their old schools or does anyone know why one couldn't push to start a club, like a board game club? Just wanting opinions mainly as it's something i would've loved to have had in high school, personally.

[Pip]

Also, this is highly offtopic but i was curious if anyone else who is going to become a teacher is planning on doing this. I'm thinking of trying to push for some after school clubs, mainly one to play different board games(Citadels, Puerto Rico, Star Wars Epic Duels, all sorts of other fun shit i've been discovering recently). I would love to start a D&D club, but i can't see parents sitting back and just accepting that one at face value.



I plan on becoming a Social Studies teacher and I know that any club that is remotely geeky, the kids are gonna ask me to to be the advisor. I'd love to advise a D&D club at school and since I'm not in the deep south I don't have to worry about the fundamentelist parents thinking I'm performing a Black Mass in the school. =)

Anyways, I cannot stand standardized tests...or standardized anything actually. One Social Studies teacher in my school, Mr. Hardiman, is one of the oldest teachers there and teaches very conservatively and he cannot stand them. When I had him for World History and Sociology he'd always say stuff like "And there is the Rhode Island board of Education, sitting on the 4th floor of the URI building like its Mount Olympus. They think they know everything even though they haven't been in a classroom for 20 years."

One thing I can't stand is in my neighboring state of Massachusetts they have this little thing called the "M-CAST" or something like that. What it bassicly is, is a book every teacher gets depending on their curriculum that goes day by day telling them what to teach, and how long to teach it. What its supposed to do is prepare the students to take some standardized test, make it so if a student moves to a diffrent town in Massachusetts they won't need to catch up and remedy the drop out rate. Ironicly, it has increased the drop out rate.

As my teacher I mentioned previously says, its completely idiotic. He said, "Well what if in my Focus on Contemporary Issues class something big happned like Katrina and my students wanted to talk about that...I'd have to say no. Or God forbid, a student or teacher ever died and the kids wanted to talk about it. According to the M-CAST I'd have to say 'STOP GRIEVING! Its day 47 I must teach about Emperor Constantine!"

[Atmasaro]

Yes, teaching towards standardized tests is increasing the drop out rate. When I was in high school I attended a lot of drop out prevention meetings in which students and faculty would come together and discuss the drop out issue. All the board and administrators would try to do is glorify the WASL (Washington Assessment of Student Learning - Washington state requires you pass this standardized test to graduate). I was always the one who told them their plans would fail because there needs to be a greater change. I told them that the WASL must be erradicated and the entire education system must be reformed. Of course that's not in their hands but it IS the solution to the problem.

Also, the math teacher I was referring to earlier was the athletics director at my school. Figured that might factor into the discussion.

I'd definitely like to note that I score well on standardized tests. This isn't a one-sided issue. This isn't just a bunch of bitter people who can't pass standardized tests. This is people who see that you can't standardize learning. Some people can do the traditional test well, others can be assessed in different ways.

Written evaluations, for example, are an amazing educational concept. One simply writes an evaluation of the class, the teacher, and what they've learned and how they feel about it. This also assesses student learning. In return, along with a grade, the teacher presents a written evaluation of the student. For some, this makes a much more effective and personalized assessment.

[NanakiXIII]

Written evaluations, for example, are an amazing educational concept. One simply writes an evaluation of the class, the teacher, and what they've learned and how they feel about it. This also assesses student learning. In return, along with a grade, the teacher presents a written evaluation of the student. For some, this makes a much more effective and personalized assessment.

Written Evaluations are amazing. I can't wait to fill them out after my college semester and speak my mind about the teacher. Usually it's good but i've been prone to leaving a nasty evalutation if the teacher was full of shit or for other reasons.

It's definatly something i'm going to do as a teacher, i'll probably do at least one halfway through and one at the end of the year, so i can make improvements during the semester if need be.

I'm also planning on giving a quick test for no points to determine what the students already know coming into the math class and what i have to review a bit more(seeing as how math is generally always building off of the previous subject). Hopefully in doing this, i can keep the class on the same level and hopefully don't have students drop behind because they don't know or are too afraid to ask during class how to do something.

Something along those lines. Still got a ways to go.

[Zero S.]

Personally I'm going to become a teacher down the road but I'm planning on being a college professor not a high school/middle school teacher so I guess my take on this might be a little different.

First off I loved how high school worked out for me. The Standardized tests are a VERY bad way to do things but for me it was great because I'm pretty good at taking tests and that kinda thing. But what made me angry about it was that I have friends who I believe are a thousand times more intelligent than I could ever be, do horrible on those tests because they can't take tests very well.

See I'm a fan of getting kids to learn things but I think teachers should be more open to using the resources available to us all. I mean take the internet for example. Why the hell should anyone have to sit and memorize a bunch of stupid facts they could easily, and most cases probably will anyways, look up on the internet? So why is it in school we teach kids that using the internet to look things up online or other such places is bad and that they should memorize it instead? Being a computer programmer in a computer science program this is pretty obvious of a thing. It is silly to memorize a lot of the grammar of a programming language because when you're out in the work force doing you job coding applications your employer doesn't care if you have the whole C Standard Library memorized or not. They only care that if you need to, you can code the program how they want it.

Now I'm not trying to say school children shouldn't learn some basic knowledge or anything, but we should move away from memorizing facts and begin to teach kids how to solve problems to which they don't have a ready answer. Give kids the abilitiy to figure out the answer to a problem no one else has ever figured out before.


As an example of part of what I was saying:
I failed my second year of spanish class in high school. Not because I didn't know spanish however. I was the one who helped most of the kids in class with their homework. I didn't do my homework. I didn't conjugate words over and over again like everyone else. And I failed because I didn't do busy work not because I didn't know the subject matter. Basically to prove to a few kids in high school that your test scores and school grades don't mean shit in the real world, the only thing that matters is what you know.

I'd rather take an F in every course I ever take and learn something than take an A and only have a test score.

[Atmasaro]

Exactly, that's the difference between fact-based learning and resource-based learning. We should be teaching students how to utilize the resources available to them as opposed to forcing them to cram information that it's unlikely they'll keep for very long.

I was talking to my former English teacher the other day and he cleared a few things up for me about the Japanese education system. I find that their take on math may well be superior to ours. Then again, I never liked any of the math classes I had to take. The Japanese math education system is pretty neat. The teacher proposes a problem, and the class must try to solve it. Over time, if the students are struggling, the teacher may give a hint. Obviously, in an optimal setting, there would be resources available and it would be as much an exercise in utilizing one's resources as it is an exercise in problem solving. It should be noted that the teacher is a resource as well.

This is similar to the approach I've seen used in high school and college English classes. The class is more focused on working together to wrap their minds around open-ended concepts. The thought process ends when there's a right answer, but it keeps on working when there's an open end. And this can be done in math with the correct construction of problems, where a student can learn the necessary skills in math and still be solving an open-ended problem that keeps him thinking.

Teachers need to find that balance, between human and pure information. There's a certain element of inhumanity to some teachers. Younger students will often view them as separate beings. I think it's important that a teacher is human, but the teacher also must set himself apart as a viable resource. It's a balancing act. A teacher takes on many faces.

[NanakiXIII]

Something a few friends of mine, who are going to be teachers, and me have talked about it a different way of grading students. Keep track of students throughout the semester and grade them on how much they've improved in the semester. If a student goes from being a D student to a B student, they've got an A for their improvement throughout the semester.

As a math teacher, i'm thinking of giving them periodical tests every other week or so, possibly even each week to judge who is understand the concepts and who isn't. They won't be worth anything, and it will just be for my knowledge. I'll keep track separate from the "traditional" grading system and work out who is improving. Alot of work, but if it comes down to being a teacher who does nothing and teaches someone to a teacher who busts his ass, even though the students may not see it in order to become a better teacher and understand the class more, then my choice is obvious.

I still haven't worked out the kinks of it all, and i think there is already a grading system floating around somewhere that i need to look into, but i think it sounds like a great system. The biggest problem as a teacher is getting the administration to approve it. It'll be a tough road, that's for sure.

EDIT: I'd like to hear other people's suggestions on how you would grade them as well.

[Atmasaro]

I think grading on improvement is a great idea. One can come into a class and pass a class without ever learning anything new. On the other hand, one can learn so many new things and still fail due to singular standards.

However, one should have an understanding of each student's individual learning process. This is the difficult part for a teacher because classroom sizes are increasing. A good teacher sees his student's potential. That's where we should apply standards.

Grading will always be the subject of debate because it's known to fail in its lack of individual standards yet no one really wants to personalize it because they feel as though it wouldn't be fair to all students, when in reality it is fair.

[ZombieG]

Something a few friends of mine, who are going to be teachers, and me have talked about it a different way of grading students. Keep track of students throughout the semester and grade them on how much they've improved in the semester. If a student goes from being a D student to a B student, they've got an A for their improvement throughout the semester.

As a math teacher, i'm thinking of giving them periodical tests every other week or so, possibly even each week to judge who is understand the concepts and who isn't. They won't be worth anything, and it will just be for my knowledge. I'll keep track separate from the "traditional" grading system and work out who is improving. Alot of work, but if it comes down to being a teacher who does nothing and teaches someone to a teacher who busts his ass, even though the students may not see it in order to become a better teacher and understand the class more, then my choice is obvious.

I still haven't worked out the kinks of it all, and i think there is already a grading system floating around somewhere that i need to look into, but i think it sounds like a great system. The biggest problem as a teacher is getting the administration to approve it. It'll be a tough road, that's for sure.

EDIT: I'd like to hear other people's suggestions on how you would grade them as well.Actually, I've really fallen in love with becoming an English teacher. During my tenure at school, I had one amazing English teacher because she allowed us to write whatever we wanted. That turned me on to writing in general, because even papers that would've sent me to the school counselor scored extremely high. She really allowed students to express themselves however they wanted.

That's honestly been my most powerful influence has been my entire life. She didn't teach by any sort of book, and while she managed to get across the syntax of writing, she made the content and personality of writing penultimate. That's the kind of teaching I admire, and I want to be able to do that. To be able to influence kids and get them into something that the average person considers dead. There are so many ways to easily go about it.

[ZombieG]

Something a few friends of mine, who are going to be teachers, and me have talked about it a different way of grading students. Keep track of students throughout the semester and grade them on how much they've improved in the semester. If a student goes from being a D student to a B student, they've got an A for their improvement throughout the semester.

As a math teacher, i'm thinking of giving them periodical tests every other week or so, possibly even each week to judge who is understand the concepts and who isn't. They won't be worth anything, and it will just be for my knowledge. I'll keep track separate from the "traditional" grading system and work out who is improving. Alot of work, but if it comes down to being a teacher who does nothing and teaches someone to a teacher who busts his ass, even though the students may not see it in order to become a better teacher and understand the class more, then my choice is obvious.

I still haven't worked out the kinks of it all, and i think there is already a grading system floating around somewhere that i need to look into, but i think it sounds like a great system. The biggest problem as a teacher is getting the administration to approve it. It'll be a tough road, that's for sure.

EDIT: I'd like to hear other people's suggestions on how you would grade them as well.Actually, I've really fallen in love with becoming an English teacher. During my tenure at school, I had one amazing English teacher because she allowed us to write whatever we wanted. That turned me on to writing in general, because even papers that would've sent me to the school counselor scored extremely high. She really allowed students to express themselves however they wanted.

That's honestly been my most powerful influence has been my entire life. She didn't teach by any sort of book, and while she managed to get across the syntax of writing, she made the content and personality of writing penultimate. That's the kind of teaching I admire, and I want to be able to do that. To be able to influence kids and get them into something that the average person considers dead. There are so many ways to easily go about it.