Space Water: Luna and Europa.

[Chaos Bard]

Dunno how much you guys pay attention to Astronomy news, but I'm pretty keen on it, and I've been following the search for water on other celestial bodies as of late. Europa was big in the news a couple years ago for theoretically having a massive ocean beneath its icy crust, which has since been virtually confirmed as true. Just recently NASA blasted the bloody hell out of a crater on the moon using a junked satellite as a missile (at least I'm pretty sure it was a satellite, could've been an actual missile), at which point they followed it up with a tracking satellite to gather data on the dust plumes. Scientists were excited to find large amounts of ice vapor in said plumes.

So what do you guys think about this ongoing search? Primarily it's being done for two things: A., to confirm whether other bodies are habital or easily made habital by humans, and B. to see if other things could be living in the nearby (visible) universe already- just not complex things. Do you think it's a waste of money, or a smart procedure in light of previous outings into space?

[Erivika]

I think the idea of extraterrestrial life of any kind is fascinating, like most other people. I find it sort amusing to think that we have consumed so much room on this planet that we're considering outsourcing, all our jobs will move to the moon. XD

[Mindlessmaniac]

I've also been somewhat keeping up with this, it's all rather interesting, not to mention entertaining to hear about NASA saying, essentially "We need information, and we will obtain that by blasting a large hole in this larger object." Crude and effective. But I digress.

The question as to whether or not this is a waste of money reminds me of a research project for which the results came out a few months ago. The purpose of the research was to find why exactly humans swing their arms while they walk. The results are for another thread, but they actually found a few questions that they weren't aware of. Even the most mundane and seemingly airtight answers can merit research from time to time.

Similarly, given we know that there is life on other planets (in the form of microscopic bacteria), it seems only natural that the research would continue. The search for water and other bodies of liquid has proven extremely interesting because of how much liquid they're finding in an area that has always been thought of as frozen solid. Also, in my opinion. This kind of research will never be a waste. Why? Simply because it entertains our fantasies and allows us to continue dreaming. This is actually far more important to innovation than almost anything else. If you lose the capacity to dream up the unlikely and then research it, you will lose the capacity for explaining the mundane. Even if NASA and the other space agencies fail to find any life of consequence, it will still lead to other discoveries and research opportunities. NASA has, undoubtedly, made some undesirable moves in the past couple of decades, but I believe that this type of research is one of their greatest contributions so far.

[Myaku]

So what do you guys think about this ongoing search? Primarily it's being done for two things: A., to confirm whether other bodies are habital or easily made habital by humans, and B. to see if other things could be living in the nearby (visible) universe already- just not complex things. Do you think it's a waste of money, or a smart procedure in light of previous outings into space?
#1 - "ongoing" isn't a word (try to look up "ongo" in the dictionary. Or, get up and ongo right now. (Sorry. I just vehemently hate the journalistic term).

#2 - I think blasting craters into the moon and other planets to analyze the debris is a waste of time and money. If we could live on the moon, it would cost tons of money and anyway, it would be a very limited way of living unless we could create everything we'd need from essentially nothing. Otherwise, food and various other things would have to be transported from Earth to the moon/other planet. The costs are virtually too much. Even if the planets once held a trace of water, that doesn't mean we can revive the ecosystem easily or create an atmosphere to contain the revived planet. So, living there? It's possible, but definitely not feasible. As for trying to find other beings in space, there could definitely be some somewhere, but until we can travel at light-speed to reach those other stars and galaxies (or until we can build probes durable enough to make it that far), it won't be easy to confirm.

[Mindlessmaniac]

#1 - "ongoing" isn't a word (try to look up "ongo" in the dictionary. Or, get up and ongo right now. (Sorry. I just vehemently hate the journalistic term).

My friends Merriam and Webster seem to disagree: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ongoing
Let's try to keep it on topic and not nitpick.

As for being pointless, I think not. This is the natural extension of scientific study. We know a lot about earth, obviously far from all of it, but quite a bit. It's only logical that we test assumptions we've taken from our earth and see what we come up with in space. Potentially, this is all pointless. Who cares if there are other races out there? If there are other potentially habitable planets out there? That solves none of our problems right here right now, and it costs a lot. Then again, any new research is going to be costly. Promoting scientific research for the sake of science is also good. The reason why research is coming back into our solar system is because previous research indicated that there was a vast amount of information we'd skipped over.

Before the Wright Brothers, researching flight was seen as foolish, a waste of resources, and, far enough back, grounds for insanity. Where would we be now without the pointless research?

[Viccica]

I think it's interesting without a doubt but I'll have to side with Erin on this. The money should be putting into studies elsewhere. No doubt the reasearch is interesting, but.. A bit unneccesary at present when we're dealing with issues a bit less.. space-oriented. =p

Of course I'm not against studying otuerspace, I think it's an endlessly interesting mystery we should aspire to unfold, but not on my top priority list personally.


It's a nifty breakthrough in the theory that there may be another planet that could sustain life but even if we DID find a planet that had a water source, we couldn't adapt to another world's climate even if we wanted to. And for that fact, we can never really have a successful study on other forms of life due to our own hinderences.

[ZombieG]

#2 - I think blasting craters into the moon and other planets to analyze the debris is a waste of time and money. If we could live on the moon, it would cost tons of money and anyway, it would be a very limited way of living unless we could create everything we'd need from essentially nothing. Otherwise, food and various other things would have to be transported from Earth to the moon/other planet. The costs are virtually too much. Even if the planets once held a trace of water, that doesn't mean we can revive the ecosystem easily or create an atmosphere to contain the revived planet. So, living there? It's possible, but definitely not feasible. As for trying to find other beings in space, there could definitely be some somewhere, but until we can travel at light-speed to reach those other stars and galaxies (or until we can build probes durable enough to make it that far), it won't be easy to confirm.That statement is subjective in a strange manner. Outside of the fact that we're both aware that it's your opinion, I don't know. What would you rather tax dollars be spent on; subsidizing farmers not to grow food, or researching the probability of space exploration and/or colonization?

I think that analyzing and researching the universe around us is an incredibly valid way to spend tax money that's completely without an agenda. We've arrived at many amazing astronomical conclusions by all the tax dollars we've "wasted" so far, such as things like gauging the age of the universe based on stars/galaxies that appear to be newly formed because they're so impossibly far away that, even with light traveling six trillion miles (write that down, then multiply it by the number of feet in a mile) a year, we're only seeing a formative astronomical body at a certain point in time. We literally have the ability to use light to look back and forth in spatial time. When you look up at night, you see space. Shit's black. What's space beyond space look like? Green microwave particles. Why can't the human eye see something so all-encompassing through a veil of pure darkness?

I'd much rather my money go toward figuring that out than financing banks that should be failing.

Also, bombing the moon is hella badass. AMERICA FUCK YEAH.

[mouse_click]

Also, in my opinion. This kind of research will never be a waste. Why? Simply because it entertains our fantasies and allows us to continue dreaming. This is actually far more important to innovation than almost anything else. If you lose the capacity to dream up the unlikely and then research it, you will lose the capacity for explaining the mundane.

i have to agree with what he said about having dreams and aspirations. but at the same time i can't help but be opposed to some of the reasons behind these frantic searches for habitable planets. it feels like another consumeristic move, so instead of trying to preserve this perfect planet that we have before us, we reach out to colonize on a new one. the lack of care everyone displays about giving back to the earth that's given so much to us is devastating. please recycle before exploring.

and now i'm forced to quote Agent Smith:
"I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species. I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area, and you multiply, and multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. A virus."

[Thiorn]

This is a subject I have confronted opinions about: On one side, I see it as long-term investment; at some point, future generations will be glad someone started exploring space when we did, because humanity will outgrow the capacity of planet Earth. It is similar to the case of all those incredibly expensive experiments on theoretical physics, such as the LHC, which are for all purposes pretty useless right now, but are very likely to mean notorious benefits in the long run.

On the other side, however, being the economist that I am, I've always had a view about science and technology that is well explained by a quote from Alpha Centauri's Nwabudike Morgan:

"You ivory tower intellectuals must not lose touch with the world of industrial growth and hard currency. It is all very well and good to pursue these high-minded scientific theories, but research grants are expensive. You must justify your existence by providing not only knowledge but concrete and profitable applications as well. "

All this research is expensive, ultimately not to specific people, but for entire societies. When science is done without regard to actual uses, society is earning new knowledge but wasting away very scarce, very needed resources. Progress for the sole sake of progress makes no sense, as science for the sole sake of science is wasteful. The ultimate purpose of this has to be the betterment of human life, and sometimes it is hard to support long-term scientific investment when there are so many other urgent needs.

So where do we draw the line? No idea. However, this is more an issue of efficiency than anything else: Modern society has the potential productivity (productivity understood as its capacity to generate something beneficial to life quality, be it shoes, health or education) to both finance long-term investments that we will need at some point -such as space exploration- and short-term needs -such as feeding our evergrowing population-. We're not facing a Malthusian Catastrophe like some people like to think; we just have most of our resources poorly managed.

My prediction, however, is that space exploration and colonization will only truly start when it becomes either socially profitable or strategically useful to do so. Until then, all we'll see will be relatively isolated and seemingly useless experimentation. But once someone comes up with an efficient system to mine rare minerals from asteroids or putting weapon platforms on the Moon becomes a reality, thing will start to pick up quickly.

[Ferret]

I don't think some of you understand what you're talking about when you say space exploration is wasteful.
First and foremost, the U.S is currently spending around 1% of its annual budget on space exploration. 1%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_Budget

Stop complaining about how it is wasteful

Secondly, the technology developed for space can be implemented on Earth too. Look at this list here! Look! http://space-exploration.suite101.com/article.cfm/practical_applications_of_space_technology
Stop complaining about how it is wasteful.

Also I don't think the current agenda is to find plants with the intend of colonizing them. However, since the only example of life in the Universe we currently know is ourselves, we have to look in places where we know life can blossom.

But yeah, I'm very exited about the discoveries that are currently being made. As a biology student, I can't help but wonder what extra terrestial life looks like: Is it carbon based? Does it have a system similar to our DNA? Does it have a biochemistry similar to ours?
It would be totally awesome if the methane gas emanations found on Mars is the result of extra terrestial life metabolism.

[Chaos Bard]

Yeah, s'pose I should've mentioned that fact myself, but I forgot. Seriously, the money spent only seems ludicrous to us because we don't deal with national budgets. And Ferret's right: The two biggest factors in contributing to the everyday life we enjoy technology-wise are space exploration and war.